Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to roots, routes, and voices that shape America, a Cincinnati Compass podcast. I’m your host and creator of the series Clara Martinote.
Bryan Wright:
And I’m Bryan Wright, executive director of Cincinnati Compass and your cohost. Before we dive in, the views and stories shared on this podcast are those of our guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Cincinnati Compass. We believe every voice has a place, especially when it shapes the future of our cities.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
And today’s story is one of those that leaves you speechless, inspired, humbled, and honestly, just proud to be human.
Bryan Wright:
We are honored to welcome someone who has built a remarkable life in medicine, broken down barriers, and raised a powerhouse of a family along the way, doctor Kotagal Shashikant.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Doctor Kant’s story is about brilliance, but also about battle. From India’s Old India Institute Of Medical Sciences to the hospital wards of Chicago and Cincinnati, he built a career in nephrology, education, and research that has saved lives and shaped minds.
Bryan Wright:
And not to mention, he’s got a family legacy that most of us can only dream about. His wife and children, all doctors. Some people pass down heirlooms. They pass down lab coats and brilliance.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
But as you know, behind every win is a wall he had to scale. Discrimination, doubt, systems built to exclude, and he’s faced it all. And still, he became a mentor to hundreds, a leader in his field, and a quiet force who never stopped pushing forward. Because for immigrants, success isn’t just a story. It’s a strategy.
Bryan Wright:
One built on grit, grace, and generations of dreaming.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
So let’s get into it. Doctor Shashi, welcome to Ruth’s, Roots, and Voices, Stories That Shape America. Before we dive into the details of your journey, India to Cincinnati, Student to mentor, immigrant to leader. Is this the life you imagined? Let’s get into it.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
So, Doctor Shashi, before we dive in, how does it feel when you look back at your journey? From India to Cincinnati, from a young medical student to a leader in your field, from an immigrant to a mentor, is this the life you imagined? I’m channeling my inner David Thoreau here. Okay.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Well, I haven’t really looked back very much, but I think my general view is that if I do look back and I have any regrets, it’s mostly about not having trained fully to use all my skills, to acquire the right pieces of paper, to use the things I know that I could question, and that’s professional training. And I think that comes either from not wanting to challenge yourself, being comfortable with what you are, and not pushing at the boundaries of what it is that is unknown. My wife has a different personality, perhaps because she grew up in a big city. I grew up in a very small town. Things were quiet.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We really had a lot of time on our hands to just wander around and take things in. So it brings me to the point that our personalities are shaped, of course, by so many things. You know, it could be our genetics. It could be where you were born. It could be your childhood experiences. It could be the atmosphere in which you were born.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Uh-huh.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So for instance, you can take kids. And I can say, my childhood was quiet and peaceful and very little that I had to worry about. On the other hand, my wife grew up in Bombay, a very busy, bustling town Mhmm. Where sometimes you had to fight for things like getting onto a bus or getting onto a train. You had to kind of push yourself through.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And I’m the opposite. I’m thinking, it’ll happen. I really don’t need to rush. You know? And this has been borne out in many experiences in our lives with our kids and with each other. So I think, really, I don’t have many regrets, but the one regret is that my personality has perhaps impeded my ability to be even more influential and not more influential in terms of getting fame.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But I think some of the things I do, I could do better if I had a little bit broader profile where people would think, oh, he’s saying this. We ought to do this. So demanding things of the hospital administration, for instance, where I work. Mhmm. I just wonder if I had sought fame and glory in that sense rather than just saying, this is my job. I do it well. I serve those who need me. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So the journey has been, in most respects, way beyond what it is that I would have achieved if I had stayed in India, for sure. That I didn’t have this vision when I first came to The US. I didn’t have a clue. I was just 23 years old. Uh-huh. I come in to do a residency, you know, an internship and a residency, maybe further training. And you could say that so much of what happens to us is happenstance. It’s an accident of birth, an accident playing being somewhere, an accident of actually having an opportunity presented to you.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Whether you choose it or not, whether you take it or not, influenced by personality, influenced by the circumstances. For instance, if you have three jobs and one of them is gonna be harder to get, but you have rent to pay, well, you’re gonna take the short thing. Mhmm. So, I think those things, I believe, are still not that much of an issue when you come to The United States. You come with your eyes wide open, and really, growing up where I grew up, we didn’t have a lot of money, but we were pretty privileged. I went to really good schools. I went to possibly the best medical school in Asia at that time. Our teachers were phenomenal.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Was that the old The All India
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Institute of Medical Sciences. Yeah. Spectacular place. So they were kind people. They were people who valued learning. They were people who actually did not hold themselves above you in the station because they were ten years older than you, and they were professors or researchers or teachers. Not all of them were the same. But we had role models who said that being a human, being in medicine, it’s okay to question.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
That is a privilege too. Mhmm. The idea that you feel safe enough to question something. Yeah. That requires safety and security. I don’t have to worry about the roof over my head or where my next meal is coming from. That culture came with me. I didn’t have money, you know, in those days.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You probably know that the government of India did not allow you to leave the country with more than $8 on your person. When I landed in New York City, the person who my father had sort of had a meeting with was an Air France agent. So we bought the ticket from him, and he arranged for a personal contact of his to meet me in New York City at Kennedy Airport and give me a hundred dollars, which I then subsisted on. And I’m not sure how much detail I knew to go into till I could get an advance from the Detroit General Hospital where I was doing my internship. And they gave us a salary advance two weeks later. So I think if you look back, and I wanna kind of stick, try to stick to the question. If I look back, I don’t see anything in my life that has been awful. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Not one thing. Yeah. Whether that was growing up as a child or going to high school or going to med school or coming year. You know, there’s not been one day, maybe two or three days where uncertainty of a negative kind influenced me, but I’ve never had to worry about what’s the right thing to do.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. You just just do it. You are just so present. Mhmm. And you do it, and things happen. You know? So now when you say I’m distinguished this or that, I wasn’t that way twenty years ago. I just was there. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
When people needed me, I was there. Mhmm. That’s just being present in people’s lives. And I’m pretty sure that in almost any profession we have I think in medicine, we are lucky because we can, as I say to people all the time, fill our heads and our hearts and our wallets all at the same time. You know? You can You can And yes. You can. You can hear it.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You know? So true.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And yeah. Finding the opportunity to serve also means you’re willing to say, this is the intangible benefit of what I do is that I get to serve. Mhmm. You don’t need to pay me this much money or that much money or give me these encomiums because I get to serve. You know? And that ethos of doing the right thing and serving, I think, really has served me well. So I would say if you want me to summarize it, really, the journey has been phenomenal. Could it have been better? Yes. Or it could have been worse too?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. But, I mean, you have your content. You have to be satisfied. I think the ability of not being content or satisfied is the root of a lot of evil in the world. So if you’re able to just look back and say
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You know, it was okay. Like, this Yes.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my dad, who was basically a technocrat, who worked in various government jobs and at the end of his life was a technocrat evaluating loan applications from agricultural conglomerates and this and that who were engaged in projects for soil and water conservation. K. So he was basically somebody who had a master’s in agricultural sciences.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And he taught us long, long ago that you don’t always have to keep looking up. Look down. You might see an insect, or you might see a butterfly, or you might see a bug, or you might see a particular leaf or a particular branch or even a very tiny animal that you would otherwise have missed. They all contribute Mhmm. Yeah. To the beauty of the whole
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. To the ecosystem.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
The beauty of the whole. Yeah. And if you don’t have those things filling your heart, then you feel something is missing and something is owed to you. Nothing is owed to you. Yeah. No. Nothing is owed to and that’s a thing that we need to, I guess, internalize.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Because we have that attitude. We also then have gratitude or gratitude. And we have gratitude because you feel nothing is owed to you.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Then the next thing is you’re humble.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So if you’re humble, you’re grateful. If you’re grateful, you’re not entitled. If you’re not entitled, you’re not angry.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
And that’s a very different ethos, have you know, compared to I feel the ethos here in America is always about what’s the next thing? What’s the next thing? What’s the next thing? Mhmm. You know? And the materialism of you’re never quite satisfied with what you have. Yeah. So with that ethos, I wonder what was your transition like as an immigrant in that case as you were?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. So that’s a good question. They’re saying if you if I were to translate that question further, do you feel that this is your place? This is that you’ve left one place and you’ve got to another place, and you got to reformulate who you are. Yeah. Yes? Because they’re things you need to fit in.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah? Yes.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Mhmm. I don’t think I’ve ever had that happen. When I grew up in school Mhmm. We were in third or fourth grade. Our medium of instruction is English. When I am in college, everything is in English. What about culture? Well, by way of culture, we could be bi or multicultural. We could at the same time enjoy the Indian festivals.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We could eat Indian food.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But we dressed in a Western way, and we listened. While we listened to a lot of Bollywood Hindi film music, We also listened to a lot of Western music. One of my biggest regrets in coming to America, if there was one, is that I came here. By the time I came here, the Beatles had disbanded. So we knew more about America, both by way of culture and politics and geography and music. So it wasn’t like I’d gone to a completely different place. Now the people surrounding me were different. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
If there were white people, there were African American people. In those days, we didn’t see very many Hispanics in Detroit because I was an intern. Mhmm. And we didn’t have much time to wander around anywhere. Mhmm. But if there is a cultural difference, I think women may experience it more. Yeah. Then men do. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And Uma will tell you slightly different stories about male patients coming on to her and wanting to not quite grope or say, hi, honey. How about going out with me? Yeah. So the doctor patient professional relationship wasn’t valid, respected. Mhmm. And as I’ve as I’ve gone along, it is indeed my passport, I think
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
That I’m a physician. It’s my passport. Mhmm. It’s my appearance. It’s So who I see. And when I go out, if I have a stethoscope on, everybody respects you. Mhmm. But if I don’t and I’m dressed in jeans and a T-shirt, I may not quite get the same respect that I think I deserve, and I’ve felt it.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. We’ve hardly ever been subjected to things that are out and out racism. Mhmm. Who am I?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Your daughter?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
No. My wife.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Oh, your wife. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
She was giving the keynote address at the American Pediatric Association or some place Mhmm. Where Michelle Obama was on the stage too. And, she went to the bathroom, and she was pretty well dressed. She had her pearls on, and she looked like she was a professional person. And she went to the bathroom, And as she was washing her hands, this lady walked up to her. One of the attendees of the conference walks up to her and says, gee. There’s no toilet paper. Will you refill the toilet paper? So my wife said, hey.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You know what? That’s not my job. You’ll have to ask the other person there. Okay. And then after the conference, this lady figures out who she is after Umma’s finished giving her that’s even address or whatever. Uh-huh. I’m so gee. I’m so sorry. I didn’t know, and I’m sorry, and I’m not normally like that.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You know? I’d say, no. You are like that. You made these assumptions based on somebody’s external appearances. Uh-huh. So I think what racism is is a very, very difficult thing to say, and I think that is something that exists all over the world. Mhmm. It has become more obvious in the last few years in this country.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
More obvious and and more okay to actually, frankly, do things that are racist. But Indians are racist. Mhmm. Skin color matters. You know, if you read matrimonial ads in the newspapers, they’ll say, oh, my son, he’s so and so. He’s fair, and he’s good looking, and he’s making a lot of money. And he needs a tall, fair skinned, slim girl who knows how to cook and has all the cooks, domestic arts. That’s just classism and realism.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You know? Just because somebody has a darker skin doesn’t mean they’re less Mhmm. Lesser person. Yeah. You know? And even though I was saying to you that I knew all the culture and I knew a lot about the current history and the politics of The US when I came, so I had an idea where my place was. But as I’m reading now, I’m finding out lots of things that I didn’t know. Some of that interest is stimulated by all the things that are going on around now, but some of it is stimulated just by the quest for knowledge. That too is culture, you know. So I think if you, I don’t know if you know about this one guy called Thomas Sowell.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
He’s an African American guy who’s professor at Stanford and member of the Hoover Institution there, which is an independent Oh, yeah.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
I know from the institution. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But so this is now going back about twenty odd years. Mhmm. And he wrote a book, which I’ve forgotten what it’s called, but largely implying that there’s something wrong with the way our society, our politics, and our culture have evolved to keep African Americans down. And so he said, I, e, people come from Vietnam and Cambodia and Laos and this and that, and they got nothing. China, India, whatever, they got nothing. They come here. They have a family culture. They have a culture of respect.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
They have a culture of hard work. And in one generation, that person who’s working in a laundry or a restaurant or whatever Mhmm. That person’s kids are doctors, lawyers, this, that, and the other.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And therefore, saying that the poor African American living in an apartment in New York City has lots more possessions lots more possessions. Mhmm. They got a refrigerator. They got a TV. They, you know, they pay their cell phone bill. I think this was before cell phones. But if you compare the person who’s just coming into the country and somebody who’s been here for generations, we still have not figured that out. Why? It’s not generally always just the person’s fault.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Right?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It’s a cultural thing.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. Yes? It’s definitely a cultural thing. And, Mhmm. Yeah. You know, that reasoning, there’s a lot. It doesn’t account for the general generational trauma or the institutional racism. There’s so much that there
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
That a statement like that, like, oh, immigrants come here and they do better than the local population. That’s No. It’s not. They’re so yeah. It’s a lot to unpack that would be
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. Hold. You have a good conversation. Yes. Yes. It would be But I’m gonna say I mean, Bryan can say Yeah. That you can’t put people in stereotypical boxes, which is saying the same thing. You can’t have preconceived ideas.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. So this stereotype, oh, gee. These people are from India. They got a great education. They got this. Oh, we’ve taken the people with the skills and this and that. We’ve taken them in. We’ve welcomed them, and we have allowed them to flourish.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Not all immigrants in this country are in that position. Not at all. Some of them are running shops. Some of them are running the laundry. Some of them are running motels. Now they’re not all stereotypically having the same inclination for learning and behavior and giving. Some of them are very clannish. They are holding on to their culture or their possessions and and and behaving not quite in a paranoid fashion Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But in an exclusive fashion.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And, you know, yeah. Being of human extraction. What do you think about that? Go ahead. Sorry.
Bryan Wright:
Yeah. No. No. No. This is I I I’m you’ve touched on a lot of things. I’m wondering how you know, going back to when you were finishing medical school, and then you touched on how your awareness of, like, US culture, like The Beatles and then some of its historical components. It’s the legacy of racism within The US as well as you talked about colorism in India and how it’s a global thing. So you also talked about happenstance and also intentionality and wanting to make an impact.
Bryan Wright:
So and the way you’re talking about from at one point, it was like this outside perspective about The US, and now you’re in it and a part of it and talking about it. What was that draw like, when you made the decision to come to The US, did you know that you would be here long term? Were you thinking I’ll just get my degree and I would be here for a little bit and then
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
No clue. No clue.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. We all think we’ll get our degree to get this out.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I can tell you two things. The institution I went to, which has actually been somewhat criticized and condemned, for having a a taking the cream of the crop, so to speak, into that school, educating them, And, really, in India in those days, the the the fee to go to the medical school was less than $ 50 a year. That was what it was costing me. Other than that, the fact that I was staying in a dorm, and I had to pay for food and this and that. So, however, there was a culture there. It was a very young school. I was the tenth batch. Oh, awesome.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So there already was established a culture of people saying we need to explore the world. So for the nine years before me, it was sort of understood, but not that people would go wherever. Not quite as, should you say heavy, but probably in my class of 50 Mhmm. We had five students who came from other countries, foreign countries, Malaysia, I think, a couple from Kenya, and so on. So they went back to their countries. But of the other 45, probably 20 came to this country. Mhmm. You know? So if 50% of people were leaving, you said, gee.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
That is really a brain drain. And today, it’s still happening, partly because there are so many skilled, educated people that there are not enough jobs for them. So I would say that it’s probably even good for India that people like me are there as examples to say, we can do well in any place. Put us there. We will grow. It’s like a seed you plant. It will grow. Because the seed itself comes with some genetic material that makes it go. When it’s genetic, social, cultural, historic, god knows.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But it’s it’s that. So, and you can see now, maybe it’s not quite as obvious, but I don’t know if you’ve read about and, you know, I read this book. I just finished reading it. It’s called A History of Burning.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
A History of Burning? Burning. Uh-huh.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It is the story of Gujarati immigrants from India. Uh-huh. In 1898, the index person left because his family’s starving. It’s a 13 year old kid. He’s sitting on a beach with his head in his hands. Mhmm. He’s got two sisters and a mother. Father’s dead.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
They’re starving. Yeah. There’s a drought. Sitting on the beach, and a guy comes and says, hey. You wanna work? He said, yeah. Absolutely. What about it?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So they said, let’s go. You know? They put him on a boat. Basically, they’re being kidnapped. Go work on the railways in East Africa.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Just like that?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes. A hundred people, 200 people, British with Indian enablers.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I gnapped them, took them there, fed them maybe a meal a day, made them work in the fields, and started to put the British Railways together down in Kenya and in Uganda. And the next thing that happens is these two guys who are working, every day they go a couple of miles laying down track, they come across an area where there is a village. There are villages. There’s catch up.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
An African village.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Village. Yes. The villagers are all out gathering free, working fields, whatever. Their British master comes and says, well, you gotta go through this village. It’s your job today to set fire to these huts.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Oh, this is real history? Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It’s perhaps a little bit fictional, but it is a complete depiction. Villages. What happens to these guys? Laid their way. Yeah. The Brits said to the Africans, you’re the menial laborers. They said to the Indians, you’re the traders. And I don’t know what else distinguished them, whether it was a clanishness, helping each other, saving their money, growing it. So the Indians in the space of a hundred years became very, very prominent in Kenya and in Uganda.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. All of East Africa. That’s exactly right. Right? And then comes Idi Amin. Mhmm. He says, you guys just know how to milk the cow. You don’t feed the cow. All of you are out in ninety days, you leave.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So if you don’t put your feet down, if you don’t put roots down in a place Mhmm. And be of value to that society Mhmm. You’re gonna be an outsider forever. Yeah. You know?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
And that’s what happened.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
That story And that’s part
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
of what we are discussing.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Right, Bryan? No. This is Yeah. You have to read this book. I highly recommend it.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, absolutely. Well, I I think I
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I fear burning.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
The history of
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And the young woman who’s written it, her last name is Oza, o zed a, which is a Gujarati last name. Uh-huh. She grew up in Toronto. And so she’s been talking to him while the story is fictional and it may be a hundred stories knit together to make one.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
But there’s probably some truth in there because I can’t imagine, raise putting down the railway in Africa, there was any compensation done by
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So what happened is once the railway was finished, they would say, okay. You’re free to go.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m pretty sure. It’s happening, by the way, again with water now Yeah. Yeah. Different approach.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Water is the next war. Yeah. Because oil is not water. Yeah. It’s going to be you know?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
But
Bryan Wright:
So hearing no. So, Shash, what I’m hearing from you is a sense of a sense of adventure. Right? So not only in academic pursuits, but travel and then also in just Reading. Intellectual journey as well. Right? And so I think I wanna kinda dive more into that as well. And, you know, you’ve brought people along with you on this journey and then now and have a family and such. But I think we’re gonna take a quick break. When we return from the break, we’ll dive into doctor Sashi’s rich career in education and his pursuit of the American dream.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You are listening to Roots, Routes, and Voices, a Cincinnati campus podcast.
Bryan Wright:
This podcast was funded in part by a grant from the Carol Ann and Ralph V. Hale Junior Foundation.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Thank you for your support in helping us to share stories that make up our beautiful region, but often go unheard.
Bryan Wright:
Doctor Sashi, this has been a great conversation. And I wanna ask about your career and because you’ve accomplished so much. And so your career has spanned teaching, research, and clinical practice. And which aspect has been the most fulfilling for you?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I think I would say in reverse order, the clinical career in terms of taking care of sick individuals, listening to their stories, helping them through a very difficult journey. And I think that comes from I don’t know if it’s cultural or personal, but it comes from a place of empathy, which is different from sympathy. Empathy in my mind implies that I’m putting myself in your shoes. Yeah. And so to me, that has been a very important thing. And then so if I’m a good physician, I’m that way because for whatever reason, I have the skills. I know how to listen. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I know how to connect to the patient, and that kinda goes into the cultural ideas. I can speak to a patient, ask him what he does, what he loves. We can speak about music. We can speak about rock and roll. We can speak about the blues. We can speak about football. I live in Cincinnati, but I’m not a Bengals fan, but anything that is a ball, you can talk to me about. Uh-huh. I’ve conveyed that same love to my kids.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We are ardent fans of the UC Bearcats and I of the Washington Commander, as they called, but previously called the Redskins. From 1972 onwards, people have said, why do you live in Cincinnati and you’re not cheering for the Bengals? I said, well, you don’t fall in love twice. You always fall. You fall in love. You don’t fall in love twice? Perhaps not. But so that has been a privilege to connect to people.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And I think that that connection and that ability to listen and empathize makes me a better physician. Mhmm. And so all the best doctor awards and this and that that I’ve gotten successively, that’s partly a popularity contest, but partly, I think, reflects my peers saying that, hey. You’re a good guy. The second piece of that is you said, what about teaching? And this is a privilege, again, that maybe just happens because you’re in an academic center. One thing for sure I knew that either I didn’t have all the skills to be an independent private practice kinda guy or join a group for whatever reason. I think that might be cultural. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But I also had the I don’t know. I don’t think arrogance is the right word, but being in an academic environment means the same thing that we were saying before. You can ask questions, and that is important. People have always told you that, okay. It’s not the answer you have. It’s the questions you have that are going to advance something. That’s what my mentors said. Hey.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
If there’s x disease or y disease, and you know everything that is to know in the literature about that, and you come across something that is quoted out of the pattern, that’s the opportunity to strike. You know? So for instance, like, you say, Alexander Fleming. Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of penicillin. He’s doing some experiments, growing bugs in petri dishes, etcetera. And he is trying to grow these bugs so that he can do more work on them. And he comes back and finds that the plates where he’s growing these bacteria all have, like, Reichs round holes. Instead of throwing the things away because his experiment is spoiled, he asked the question. Why did that happen? Not growing here.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. Because the mold had gotten there, the penicillin mold, and it was producing penicillin. Oh, wow. Right? Mhmm. So what I think we need to say is that it’s enriching because you’re constantly being faced with uncertainty and questions that you can raise that can then make you a better person because you’re inquisitive or because you collaborate. The other piece of our being in a teaching institution, which, unfortunately, I work on a system which isn’t as good as it could be, but we have great individuals. So when I’m rounding with residents and fellows and students, what is it that we are doing? We’re asking questions. They’re asking me questions I don’t know.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
But even more importantly, I have colleagues in different specialties. As I show up in front of them, they ask me things. But just the same way I ask them things, I’m getting free learning. It’s free. That culture needs to permeate us every single day. That’s the source of happiness. Yeah. The happiness is you may say, oh, well, it’s about achievement.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Right? It’s about acquisition. But that acquisition can be knowledge. Yeah. It can be the sunlight over there. Right? It can be that I imbibe the scent of that flower or that beautiful color, or I look in another person’s eyes. I have to tell you about you know, we’ve traveled. So there’s a great gift being in America. Having an American passport means you can go anywhere.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
People will not ask you. You can go anywhere in the world, and you don’t need a visa. You know? But going to Antarctica now, this is, like, sitting in one of these icebreaker things we did about five, six years ago, I still remember how much we learned from the biologists over there about life in the water. Mhmm. Those guys are relatively undisturbed by humans for nine months a year. Mhmm. So there are seals, and there are dolphins, and then there are penguins, and there are whales. And, one day, standing on the bridge of the boat, I saw this humpback whale come maybe 15 feet up, reach right next to the boat.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And as this magnificent animal goes by, his one eye, which is this big, is looking at me with ultimate curiosity.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Like what?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Now you have to know that there is wisdom in that Well. Being. Mhmm. You know? So that’s curiosity. That’s right. Wealth. It’s a wealth. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And if we were able, all of us, to have that, it’d be great.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Amazing. Yeah.
Bryan Wright:
Is that what you were when you were talking about happiness in this quest for knowledge, is that kind of what you seek or what you sought? Well, I don’t wanna put it in past tense because Yeah. Mentorship and as a mentor, mentee, it’s bidirectional. So is that kind of what drives you, and what kept you as a as a mentee, but also what drives
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
you as a mentor? That’s a good question. I think you actually asked me to talk about it. But giving and the opportunity to give, I think, is a very, very, very great place of privilege. When I give of knowledge, when I give of my time, when I give of empathy, when I give of kindness or take my friends out, buy them lunch, or celebrate somebody who’s retiring as we did last weekend because our institution would do it, I did it. And while it is maybe you might say, oh, you’re just doing it for yourself because really are you really giving it for yourself because you can feel powerful and proud, or you’re really actually giving it because of that person? Yeah. And they may be very difficult to separate sometimes. Mhmm. The act of giving, is it for you, or is it for them?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Or is it for them?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You know? Yeah. So, and and and sometimes you don’t have to have a motive, I think. Mhmm. You really don’t need to to parse it in the sense why are you doing it. Mhmm. You just do a good deed. Yeah. The
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
A good deed needs to be done, and you have the ability to do it.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Right. Exactly. Yeah. So I read many years ago now, maybe five, six years ago when it was around the time of Christmas, there was an editorial in the New York Times talking about Pope Francis. Pope Francis addressed this issue of panhandlers in New York City. He said, They’re there. You don’t know their story. They’re standing at the corner with a hat in their hand.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Mhmm. You don’t know. Today, we make up narratives. Why are we giving money to this panhandler? Because they’re just gonna go smoke it or buy some dope or do something else that keeps them out of being productive citizens. I don’t know what their story is. Yeah. I should not assume that they’re gonna do bad things.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
They’re going to do it.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So this is my part to give you those $2 Mhmm. And look in your eyes and recognize your personhood. You’re a person. If I do that, then I’ve done what whoever god is Yeah. Is what I want to do at that moment. So this was a very powerful moment for me because it enunciated the idea of giving self esteem.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. So it reminds me of Christians and tithing. Yes. You know, where you have to tithe 10% of your salary, whatever positions you have Right. On a monthly basis. Yes. And, my mom is a very faithful tither.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Okay.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You know? Right. And I decided one time to just please say about it because I’m like, you know, why do you have to keep doing this? You don’t have to keep doing this. And she said, you know, I don’t do it because I was trying to convince her how much the church misuses funds.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You know? And she eliminates it. And she was like, you know, it’s not my job to decide what’s going to happen. My obedience: Yes. To the creator is to give 10%. What happens after that is not my, it’s not my responsibility. That meant a lot to me because I had never made that connection. Like, on her part, it’s the obedience.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Well, today, there’s a very good way to lead into today’s current politics. Uh-huh. The USAID has been disbanded. Yeah. Courts, they’re corrupt. Mhmm. Courts, they do this. These are people who’ve spent their lives away from the comforts of being in The United States.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Home. Mhmm. Of home. They have grown up kids that have been raised here, there, and everywhere else. And what they’re doing You may think this is money wasted Mhmm. Because you could be working in Zambia or Zimbabwe Mhmm. Or in Eastern India or in Ukraine or someplace else that needs help.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You USAID is allocated 10 to help that cause. 2 or 3 or $5 go into administrative costs. Maybe we’re getting food from them. Those $3 go back into the American farmer who’s giving
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. Who has to give the crop.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Dollars may ultimately go to that mission. So you could call it waste, but you can also say that that is the American influence. We are there to help. Yeah. We can help. So I wish to be a leader and to walk the talk.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Because you have the ability to help. Why not? Right?
Bryan Wright:
I agree. And and doctor Shashi, you talk about this as you know, I’m thinking about, like, current topics and you know, bringing it here and you’re you’ve talked about a life of giving, and you made the choice to come here to The US to build your knowledge and a base to start to give and to work. And I think about how, in your profession, how one in four doctors in The US are immigrants or in or Yes. Foreign trained.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes.
Bryan Wright:
Yet there is this kind of perception, questions around who is American or who should be here. And I think if we’re talking about, like, USAID, right, or, like, being as a country, a leader that was made up of many people from outside The US who’ve made this place great and are giving as doctors, just critical care in life. And yet at the same time, there’s questions about, you know, immigrants and inclusion or not in society. Like, how do you reconcile that, or how do you see a path forward?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
That’s a good question. I think this is the same theme that runs through all societies, this creation of a straw man who’s the other. The straw man. The other is that I’ve got to beat down because I have the power to beat down. And it may also, at some point in time, be structured around this false narrative that somebody is taking from you that is rightfully yours. And so, therefore, we create a constituency of aggrieved people not realizing that actually the opposite is a much more enriching thing. We give because we can. We give because we are leaders.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We give because we wanna set an example. We give because that’s the right thing to do. So we could easily look and say, well, I don’t fully support the idea of just these unchecked people walking across the border, but many of them are fleeing persecution. Right. If you are living in Haiti today, there is no real safety. There is no government. The place is being run by gangs. Now you can blame them for not having the ability to govern themselves properly.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You can see this happen in Nicaragua or El Salvador or Venezuela or Venezuela or other places in the world, Sub Saharan Africa. It’s climate change. Let’s not even go there. But climate change is driving so much migration. So how do we reconcile this? I think we need to have a more rational structure that meets the expectations of all, That through facts, I used to say, who’s working in your Tyson plant, sucking chickens? Who’s working in those meat packing factories? Who’s working on your farms? Who is doing the hard work? Oh, well, I don’t wanna know that. Well, I ought to be able to say that we all have a place. And as I’ve said before, I’ve never felt out of place. Never have I felt out of place except a few times.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
And it may be that it’s less obvious than it should be, or I’ve got blinders on Yeah. Because I have privilege. You know, so it could be that that’s the case. Yeah?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Do you think successful immigrants have a responsibility? Yes. To constantly talk about this narrative.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It’s a double edged sword.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Or maybe not they’re successful, but just the idea of a constant narrative that tries to merge or to raise awareness
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes. Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
About where
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. Yeah.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Immigrants. In America Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You can have the identity you want. Mhmm. You can be Clara Yeah. Who grew up in Zimbabwe. Mhmm. I can be somebody who grew up in India. She can be somebody who grew up in Alabama or Cincinnati or Chicago or Detroit. We can be that, but we can also be present here in Cincinnati as part of a community.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So one of the most important things that we are doing here, I think, Umaya and I know this, is we do not want to isolate ourselves into what feels comfortable. That’s one of our failings in some ways is that we are not that aggressively involved with the cultural activities of the Indian communities. We’re very few very good Indian friends. Many of our friends are people who have been here. Mhmm. We’ve interacted with them. We’ve learned through them. We’ve given to them, and that’s the ethos that my younger child has.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
She’s out there at the front of the city of Cincinnati working with the mayor and his cohorts as well as people in the African American community who are really bearing the brunt of this gun violence, working with them because this is a home. Just like that lady in Uganda who said, I’m not leaving.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
This is my home. This is my home. Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So how do you keep your foot in both places? Yeah. That’s the issue.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right? Yeah. It’s tough because I think I am a good person . Sometimes, my opinion on this is not fully formed. Yeah. But it’s the idea of constantly being the other because they’re constantly immigrants, and it’s like at what point does that stop and you’re just American? But then also realizing if that stops, then there is Where
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Am I?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
It’s easy Mhmm. It’s easy to now demonize the new immigrants.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes. You know? Like Yes. Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
We were never there before. We just woke up one day and we’re all American. But the third time is like, how can I just be
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes? An American without being an immigrant? I can’t remember that. Says we are universal. Uh-huh. And this is important. So it kind of feeds back feedback into what I said about the American passport. One of the powers that we have, my wife and I have Mhmm. We’re not otherwise big consumers. Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We have lived in the same old house for thirty seven years. Mhmm. You know, we don’t drive fancy cars. We don’t guzzle gas. So there’s another thing that’s a driving force behind me Mhmm. If I want to avoid contributing further obnoxious gases to the atmosphere.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Right.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
I wanna do that, but I have the power to travel. Mhmm. I think people say I’ve been to all seven continents. Mhmm. Why? Go to Africa. You can go to The Middle East. You can go to India. You can go to Australia, New Zealand, Antarctica, or Europe.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You can go anywhere you want. Mhmm. And everywhere you go, you open your eyes, you open your heart, you open your ears, and you learn. Same old thing. Learn. Learn. So that is a great blessing about being American. It’s a great blessing.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Mhmm. And not only does it, of course, give us the joy of eating different things or drinking different whiskeys or learning about the make things and so on Mhmm. But it’s also, I think, in the end about letting people see who you are. Uh-huh. You know? And there are funny stories I could tell about everything, but I don’t know how we’re running on time. But, you know, we should be thinking about just being ourselves. Let it go. You know? Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You don’t need to be and that maybe comes from security, I guess. Yeah. I don’t need to drive a big car. I don’t need to have a Mercedes. I don’t need any of that. Actually, it’s my virtue to drive a hybrid car. Look. I’m helping save the planet.
Bryan Wright:
I think with the you’ve you’ve hit on two things, and, you know, we are like you said, we are getting close to time, but I was thinking of you talking about this is our home. Like, it’s this inclusive Yes. Our home.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Bryan Wright:
And, you know, there’s been a lot of backlash against immigrants and you’ve talked about you know, you’ve asked a question and almost rhetorically like, well, who’s preparing your food? Who’s delivering your food? And who is providing the care? And it’s you know? So I think that the proper response is like, hey. Reminding people that we are here. We are in this home together. And I think that’s a very powerful point that you’re making. And so I think this has been an incredible question conversation rather. And I do have one last question for you. And thinking about this with your experiences and everything we’ve talked about today, what kind of advice do you have for new immigrants and maybe particularly Indian families trying to navigate both the successes here and the biases in America? What yeah. What kind of advice do you have?
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Great great point. So I would say invest yourself in the place you live. Give to the place you live. Amen. That’s your home.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It’s not a one way street.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
They are not gonna let you call it home until you say it’s your home.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Oh my gosh. Yes.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
You’ve got to say it. So don’t ghettoize yourself because that feels comfortable. I don’t want to be exposed to the discomfort of somebody looking at me, just looking at my skin or my hair without knowing what else I do. So as I was saying to you, my white coat and my stethoscope are my passports. That at once gives me status as well as respect. Mhmm. If I didn’t have that passport, would I still count?
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Mhmm.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. That is very important because I will count because I’m a volunteer somewhere. I will count because I go to the library. I will count because as I pass you on the street, I will smile at you, and I will make eye contact because that then says, I’m not afraid of expressing to you that this is me. Take me, take me as you want.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So you’ve got to invest. It’s like anything else. You gotta invest. Yeah. This is your home. Oh. I’ll tell you that we have a small place in Southern Colorado. It’s a very liberal part, very south, very poor, but nice accepting people.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
We’ve been there. We go in the summer for twenty some years. It is the most accepting place. We showed up. We had some friends there. We showed up, and within two years, my wife had invited this person and that person, and this person who works in the cafeteria, and that person works in the bar, and that person is a teacher. Right. So we have a community, and that is what? It’s an investment.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Mhmm. You know? So that doesn’t go away easily. You know? Yeah. And it’s a reciprocal thing. If I invest in you, you invest in me.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
I am. Yes. 100%.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So I think really the idea that I would give new immigrants is stand tall, don’t be afraid, The country is largely accepting. Your values are going to be seen in interacting with a whole vast range of people. In my profession, we’ve had the natural opportunity to do this. Not everyone does. If you’re a techie, you sit in front of a computer getting an h one b visa for writing code. Well, you know, and there’s multiple code words in there. But the opportunity therefore breeds you to be in isolation, which I think you gotta get away from.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. But after work, you can be part of that community. Yes. I know.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes. Yeah.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Yeah. I have met certain immigrants who will invest back home Mhmm. Go all out to do a lot. They’ll live here very meagerly and they’re investing back home. And I’m always like Yes. You are here.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yes.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Invest in the community that you are here. Yes. Yes. You don’t invest back home. Mhmm. But it’s, like, primarily, you know, you are in the community. You have to be part of the community. Show up voluntarily.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
You know, like, do everything in that community you’re in.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. I would add something else. Mhmm. We, while we’ve not sent a lot of money to India, we have enabled my father to buy the apartment that my third brother now lives in. Mhmm. And we travel, and we spend money there. Mhmm. But at the same time, I can do it all.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Yeah. I just have to parcel it and do it with intent. So I can give to my university, which has given me the opportunities, which both Umai and I are doing. Mhmm. We’re sponsoring lectureships that’ll run year after year long after we go. I can give to institutions, I believe, that contribute to the culture. So it’s the opera. It’s the CCM.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
Mhmm. It’s the UC Bearcat basketball team. It’s my children’s school. Mhmm. It’s the colleges that they went to and so on. So that says to you, you care because they have contributed to us. Right? Yep. So in some ways, it may be you think it’s a transaction.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
It’s not a transaction. It’s a matter of ownership. If I give you something, some ways I bought a little place in your heart. Right. You know? And I think that’s really, really, really important to say, well, not everybody has that power because they’re not privileged or they’re not wealthy or whatever. But I think you do. You know? I’ve seen people say this is something that is true. Generosity exists in the hearts of many people in this country.
Dr. Kotagal Shashi Kant:
So you can be driving along one snowy day and somebody’s lost their tire. Some person will drive up behind them and help them change the tire. You know? So that generosity, I think, needs to be brought out. It’s good to recognize that we’re human. We need a community. Right. You know? Yeah.
Bryan Wright:
I agree. I think it’s easy to be nice, and I think we do need more Yes. Recognize that more often. Yes. And speaking of generosity, I’m very thankful for your generosity for being here and taking the time to have this conversation with us. And, you know, the gift of your time is very meaningful, and we’re thankful that you were able to join us today. And, doctor Shashi, this has been an incredible conversation. You know, your story is one of grit, excellence, unwavering perseverance, and I know it’s going to inspire so many people, whether immigrants, professionals, parents, and anyone who’s ever been told they don’t belong.
Bryan Wright:
You know? So I really appreciate you being here, and thank you so much. To everyone at home, we appreciate you for joining us today. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to Roots, Routes, and Voices That Shape America wherever you stream your podcast. Visit www.cincinnaticompass.0rg to sign up for our newsletter and stay connected about upcoming community events.
Clara Matonhodze Strode:
Our producers are Asim Mishu and Jane Muindi. Sound engineering and mixing provided by Hardcast Media, Onset engineers, Peter and Audrey, and eleven twenty seven Media. A very special thank you to the Forest Park branch of Cincinnati Hamilton County Public Library for hosting, and to the Carol Anne and Ralph V. Hale Junior Foundation for sponsoring our podcast. I’m your host, Clara Martinose. Thanks for listening.
