Clara Matonhodze:
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Roots, Routes and Voices that Shape America, a Cincinnati campus podcast. I’m your host and creator of the series, Clara Matonhodze.

Bryan Wright:
And I’m Bryan Wright, executive director of Cincinnati Compass and your co host. Before we dive in, the views and stories shared on this podcast are those of our guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of Cincinnati Compass. We believe every voice has a place, especially when it shapes the future of our cities. Let’s get into it.

Clara Matonhodze:
Let’s get into it. Shakila, thank you so much for joining us today. I’m really looking forward to this. It’s been a while since we last saw each other.

Shakila Ahmad:
It’s wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for the invitation. It’s delightful to be with both of you.

Clara Matonhodze:
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So let’s get into the questions. I want to start with your roots, obviously, what we do with the podcast, obviously, Roots, Ross and Voices. Right. So we talk about the roots of where you’re coming from, your origins, your origin story, and then we go into the route that you have taken to get to where you are. That can be literally or figuratively, however the conversation takes us.

Clara Matonhodze:
And then ultimately we talk about the voice that has emerged now that you’re a solid member of the community. So I want to start with talking about your journey to America. You were just nine years old when your family moved from Pakistan and came to Cincinnati so your father could teach at the University of Cincinnati. You said that you were the only brown girl in your class and that you often felt quiet and unseen. Can you take us back to that moment? What did it feel like to leave the familiar and step into a place where you were feeling unseen? What did that feel like to a nine year old girl?

Shakila Ahmad:
You know, I can just visualize our home with, you know, the four spaces, gardens around the house and leaving that very comfortable, happy space and in a happy way to come to the US and start school. So there was, I. There was a level of excitement of coming to America, of coming to America. And you know, my father had actually been here earlier to get his PhD in Indiana University. And then it turned out that he was going to settle in Cincinnati instead of going to Wisconsin, which I was told was too cold to go to. And so when we got here, you know, I went into grade school and we lived in a little two or three bedroom apartment. There were four of us. And so, you know, there was the aspect of the physical space of the school of being, for us being much more closed in than it was.

Shakila Ahmad:
We were happy to be together and excited, but yet, you know, there was this big transition for us. And then at school it was, you know, even though I went to an English medium school and I thought I spoke English well, I realized I spoke British English and not Americanese. So I had to kind of adapt to all, all of that and all the linguistic differences. And then, you know, I think I definitely felt like I was different and kind of set apart from the others. And so everyone was kind of trying to figure out who I was and where I was from and what it is that I was all about. And. And so that was the first time that I experienced that in the sense that I was a completely unknown entity and in a kind of very exploratory way by others. And then also then it made me think about my identity and who I was and how it is that I wanted to project myself.

Shakila Ahmad:
And it was. It was sometimes lonely, sometimes it was very interesting, sometimes not a lot. Initially it was exciting, but I think the interesting and the lonely little bit now, you know, initially having none of my friends, no other family, all of that.

Clara Matonhodze:
So did you start school at the beginning of the semester or was this in the middle?

Shakila Ahmad:
Yes.

Clara Matonhodze:
Did you have the advantage of maybe there were other new kids?

Shakila Ahmad:
That’s a really good point. I think we started in the middle, so that was also an element already formed. Yes, exactly. And so we were able to, you know, get into the school system and all of that, but nonetheless it was. Yeah, that was, you know, thank you for asking me that, because I never really thought about that. That probably was an element of, you know, another element of being the outsider and being able to fit in.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, and I mean, I can identify with that because I remember when I was growing up, we moved from one part of Zimbabwe to another part, and it was during the middle of the school year. I found that very traumatic because. And yeah, and when you think about it, like at the beginning of the school year, there are a lot of other new kids.

Shakila Ahmad:
You know, there’s always somebody new.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, there’s always somebody new. So I think it’s. It’s an easier transition than when you’re studying in the middle. You know, the kids have already formed and it’s really hard to try and figure out, so where am I going to fall in this place? But, yeah, so nine year old you, new country, new school, and trying to find your place.

Shakila Ahmad:
Trying to find my place. And I will share that. I did develop some friends. There was a very small Muslim Community at the time. We’ll probably talk about that later. But I did make some friends, two lovely friends, one of whom I reconnected with a few years ago, who came for a tour to the Islamic center. And she said, I don’t know if you remember me. I’m Donna.

Shakila Ahmad:
And I give her the biggest hug of my life, you know, and so, you know, I do want to say that I think we can find good people and good connections. So sometimes it’s a little bit harder depending on when and where you come from and how it is that you interact with people and how receptive people are. But I did find some wonderful people that I think gave a lot of comfort and just authentic friendship to me, which still remains with me today.

Clara Matonhodze:
That’s wonderful. Yeah.

Bryan Wright:
That’s so great that you got to reconnect with Donna.

Shakila Ahmad:
I know. It was so. It was so meaningful. I really. And philosophically, she’s kind of where I am, and she’s been following the work and. Which, you know, just kind of put me at awe as to how you can possibly stay connected with people even though you’re not physically connected with them.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
And that meant a lot to me, and it meant a lot as to, you know, how I can be who I am and be. Be part of other people’s lives when I don’t even realize that I’m a part of other people’s lives.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah. So were you and the donor. Were you the only Muslim student?

Shakila Ahmad:
Oh, yes.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yes, I was the only. Well, you know, my brother was behind me, and my sister was behind him, but. And she was just starting school, so, yes, I was the only Muslim student in my class, and Donna and Stacy were of the Christian faith tradition, so.

Clara Matonhodze:
You know, I assumed the neighborhood was the same.

Shakila Ahmad:
The neighborhood was the same, actually, at least. Yes, by all means. We lived initially in an apartment complex, and then, I don’t know, maybe a year or so later, my parents bought a house. But in the apartment complex, there were no other Muslims. And then maybe it was two years later that we bought the house. A year later or so, a family moved in at some point into the same complex. And that was like, oh, wow, there are other Muslim families that, you know, might be in the same circumstances as we. And they happened to be a Pakistani American family as well.

Shakila Ahmad:
So I think it was a little bit later they happened to be in that same complex, but we connected.

Bryan Wright:
That was it. So you’re. You’re here in the US. A Pakistani woman, Muslim woman, speaking British English, not American English. I Guess which two are very different.

Clara Matonhodze:
A girl at that point.

Shakila Ahmad:
Girl, yes.

Bryan Wright:
Girl at that point.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yes, definitely a little girl.

Bryan Wright:
And you meet people who are very different from you and they have more similarities. When you go back to when you were in Pakistan, was it like that, where there were people of different faiths around? Was it all kind of homogenous in the way that you were seeing here or what? Can you go just take us back to before you came to the US and how. What was it like in Pakistan at the time?

Shakila Ahmad:
You know, I, we say all praise to God. You know, it was a lovely life and we had a wonderful community. It was more like the professors and educators and so I never really thought much about it, but one of our closest friends, one of the other people that had done his PhD with my father having come to the US and then back to Pakistan, was a Christian family, the Hyatts. Hyatts, as you might say. But they weren’t part of the hotel chain, I don’t think. But they were just a lovely family and they had a bunch of kids and we were friends with them and their mother was so sweet and I never really, you know. And so culturally, as in America now, we have a lot of commonalities with people. And then at some point I found out, oh, they didn’t go to a mosque, they didn’t celebrate Eid, they happened to go to church and they, you know, they celebrated Christmas, which was just a colorful day off for us, you know, when we were kids.

Shakila Ahmad:
But they were, they were amazing. And when my parents moved to the U.S. I think at some point they also moved, so. So we stayed connected in the US as well. So that was also very meaningful to have that connection and that understanding from Pakistan. But it wasn’t the norm. Bryan? Yes. Almost, you know, 90 plus percent of Pakistan is all Muslim.

Shakila Ahmad:
And so it was not the norm.

Bryan Wright:
Right. But it seems even though in both contexts you had at an early age multicultural and interfaith interactions with people and building community, and whether it’s with your parents and then this professor with the Christian family, or as a child here in the US with Donna being a Christian, like there’s already interfaith multicultural interactions that are happening at a young age, which to me seems like a quiet thread that kind of weaves through your work and what you do now. Is that fair?

Shakila Ahmad:
No, I think that’s fair. And the thing is, is that I feel very blessed to have had those early experiences and that interaction. I don’t know if I would have been averse to it, but let’s just say the fact that they were just very positive experiences and they enrich my life and enrich our family’s life, that I think it was definitely a contributing factor as to how I looked at the world and how I grew up and began to shape and formulate into who I am as an adult.

Clara Matonhodze:
That’s great. Yeah. And, Shaquille, So I have come across something where you said one of the turning points in your story was during a philosophy class at Colorado High School that you have described as your aha moment. The first time that you could speak about your values without being seen only as a Muslim. What was said in that classroom, and why did it stay with you?

Shakila Ahmad:
I think in that classroom, the teacher was able to create an environment which, you know, which allowed us to open up our values of family, of faith, belief in a higher power, how we look at the world in the context of all of those things and how it shapes, you know, how we approach life, how we treat other people, how we aspire to make a difference in the world that we love. And to me, it was very meaningful because these were all very core values that I grew up with and I never thought about. I was a little bit of a rebellious teenager at a younger age. I know Bryan’s like you, and yes, my parents would attest to that. That. But I found this discovery to be very enlightening because I realized that even though I was friends with Donna, we had so many things in common and so on. I realized that, you know what? Other people have those same values. They may not go by the name Muslim or necessarily Christian or anything, but that they have a lot of the same values, and that you have an opportunity to interact with them, to work with them, to leverage them and achieve things together.

Shakila Ahmad:
So, you know, I mean, I don’t know if that answers your question.

Clara Matonhodze:
Absolutely answers my question. And I’m thinking, so you are in high school when you’re getting this aha moment, this revelation that other people have the same values. I’m thinking I had that exact same aha moment when I was in my 20s and working at the Cincinnati Museum Center. You know, I was working, doing cultural festivals. I would curate different cultural festivals for the museum. And I remember distinctly thinking, after I’ve met with different communities, the African community, Latin American community, Asian community, all these different communities that I would meet with that had committees. And I remember thinking, oh, my gosh, it’s as if I had the exact same meeting, but just with a different group. Of people.

Clara Matonhodze:
Right. It’s like the values, everything that they’re talking about, it might be the gossip. It might be, you know, the things that irked them about the other ethnicities. It’s like the exact same conversation. And it just makes you realize, like, we just really all the same, for the most part.

Shakila Ahmad:
Absolutely.

Clara Matonhodze:
We have the same values, we have the same aspirations, the same desires, and we are circulating the same gossip.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah, sometimes. And then also that we have, you know, for those of us for whom those values are very core and deep, we also have a third by which we can connect to other people.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yes.

Shakila Ahmad:
And that is something that a lot of people don’t even realize and a lot of us sometimes forget.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Bryan Wright:
Now I’m thinking about the fateful question. This is changing a little bit. Think of the fateful Cincinnati question of what high school did you go to? And I’m realizing now that you can answer that question.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yes.

Bryan Wright:
And someone will recognize it. I can’t answer that question.

Shakila Ahmad:
You can.

Bryan Wright:
No, I mean, I can answer it, but when I say Martin Luther King.

Clara Matonhodze:
His high school is not in Cincinnati.

Bryan Wright:
Not in Cincinnati. And so that’s the same for you, Claire. Right. So it’s just. That’s a common question. And so it’s. I don’t know, just nothing more than that. It’s just interesting that it’s a common society question and you can answer that.

Bryan Wright:
It’s great.

Clara Matonhodze:
It’s a question we cannot get past in this podcast without asking, which goes to my argument that it’s a universal question. Whereas you’re like, oh, it’s so Cincinnati. I’m like, no, this is a universe yourself question. Which high school did you go to? You know, regardless of where you are.

Bryan Wright:
Right.

Clara Matonhodze:
You know, I grew up in Zimbabwe, and Zimbabweans still want to know if I meet another Zimbabwean. Which high school did you go to?

Shakila Ahmad:
Really?

Clara Matonhodze:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because immediately. I think people, in our quest to try and gauge, you know, maybe where other people are in society or how you grew up. It’s a question that is used, you know, if you went to this high school, then I can make inferences about what your family is like, maybe what your values are or how you grew up. And I can see, like, do we have anything in common?

Shakila Ahmad:
You know, so that is true. But, you know, one thing that I’ve realized over the years is that as decades pass, environments change tremendously. And so people’s perceptions and associations sometimes may or may not be in sync. And so I, having gone to Korrain High School on the very west side of town and then living in Montgomery on the very east side of town and now moving to the northern suburbs. You know, people have different perceptions of those and I’ve experienced all of those and in a way, maybe in different ways that people think about them today. So it’s very interesting. Whereas Saint X, you went to Saint X, My boys, by the way, went to Saint X. St.

Shakila Ahmad:
X is Saint X. So there are some that consistently stay there and then other things kind of flow and ebb into different spaces.

Bryan Wright:
Yeah, and there’s both, there’s both nuance, but also some, some constants.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yes.

Bryan Wright:
Which is good. Right. We need that stability. But also there are some nuances to this and understanding of where people are from this east and west divide. I didn’t quite understand it, I see it and feel it now, but also understand there’s nuances within that. And thinking about you living on the west side on the east side and now on the north. And earlier on when you’re interacting with other community members, particularly the Muslim community, at the time there was no mosque, so you’re meeting at people’s houses, I’m assuming, and then in other places. And so when you’re practicing your faith in living rooms, how did that kind of grassroots spirituality, if you will, how did that shape, how did it build community? You’re viewing this community and carry on now.

Shakila Ahmad:
You know, I think it laid the foundation for the community that I still feel is a core part of what defines Cincinnati from other places in the sense of that it for us to gather as families, for our parents, our parents, friends, to educate us about Islam and then eventually going from homes or even celebrating Eid at St. Monica St. George in Clifton, to buying that little house across the street on Fairview Avenue as the first mosque where I got my Sunday school education by my parents, friends and, you know, my aunties or uncles or whoever, build that close knit community where it was very welcoming to all newcomers. Okay. And that is something that you don’t necessarily see in larger cities or larger communities where people have their circles already built. And so it was tradition for my mother to have whoever the new family, Muslim family, was coming to Cincinnati to have them over for dinner, have them meet other people and sleep. So that led to the community that became the mosque that became the larger mosque on Clifton Avenue that eventually became the Islamic center of Greater Cincinnati. So that foundation of welcoming, openness and the diversity of the Muslims that were here, it wasn’t huge.

Shakila Ahmad:
But in those living rooms we had a Pakistani, we had an Indian family. We had an Egyptian family. I believe we had a family from Lebanon. So that was the foundation at that point. We didn’t have any African Americans or Africans. But eventually, I think we were enlightened to the fact that, okay, there was that huge community that had been here, and so it was important for us to connect with them as well.

Clara Matonhodze:
What is your family? And I have no idea what a traditional Muslim family is like, but do you think it would be considered traditional or American? Because I imagine so. When I’m thinking traditional, say, even in an African context, I’m thinking of a family that grows up with the customs of. What it means, say, in my case as Zimbabwean. That means if my mom is around, I am not going to cook or associate or what have you with anything that has pork in it. You know, I changed my whole living right. To suit her. I have to cast, you know, if I’m giving you something or if I’m saying hello, you know, I have to be very formal. So were you raised in a family like this? That.

Clara Matonhodze:
Or were you raised maybe. And then when I’m thinking of, oh, you’re raising kids within an American context, I’m thinking everything is very informal. I’m like, hi, mom, you know. You know, and we’re just pretty much, you know, yes. Kind of like, I’m hanging out with my friends, like, yeah. So I’m wondering, like, what type of family were you?

Shakila Ahmad:
I, you know, I. I would say Clara, that hybrid. Hybrid is the answer because they’re, you know, there were things that they very much retained and are still very much a part of my life and now the life of my daughter, my children, boys and girl, and now her son, you know, so there are definitely traditional elements that were always carried through and were there. But in many ways, we were very American. And, you know, for a while, I kind of forgot speaking Urdu or Punjabi because, you know, we were surrounded by English all the time. So English became the natural norm. And I guess it’s a good thing I married a good old boy who grew up in Pakistan, which I said I would never do. And I relearned Urdu and, you know, and am able to speak it even though.

Clara Matonhodze:
So what did being American mean to you?

Shakila Ahmad:
American means that one of the dishes that I learned to cook early on was lasagna. It means that I call my mother.

Clara Matonhodze:
Which is actually lasagna. Isn’t that Italian?

Shakila Ahmad:
I know, I know. That’s why I’m laughing. So, you know, we love hamburgers and all of that finding halal burgers initially was very challenging for my parents. But I call my mother Mom, I call my father dad. Those are the American elements, you know, in kind of a superficial way. And then I think culturally, you know, it was very important for us to appreciate and be a part of American culture. And so my parents were constantly trying to find that balance where we wouldn’t lose the Pakistani and the Muslim values and at the same time, adapt and be very comfortable in flowing in and out of spaces that were purely American, non Pakistani, non Muslim.

Clara Matonhodze:
Right, right. And then now, what does it mean to you, being American? Like, how has that changed over the years?

Shakila Ahmad:
How has it changed over the years? In a way, it has remained the same because I’ve retained those Islamic, Muslim values. I’ve retained a link to my culture, which is my heritage, as all of us bring different heritage to this beautiful land. And that’s what makes it so beautiful and so vibrant. And at the same time, I don’t watch desi movies. Indian. I just don’t, because my, first of all, my husband falls asleep in those. They’re too long.

Bryan Wright:
I can relate.

Shakila Ahmad:
This movie.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, no, I know which one you’re watching.

Bryan Wright:
It doesn’t matter.

Shakila Ahmad:
When you would get along more. So culturally, I very much appreciate the cultures of America, whether it’s drama, whether it’s movies, whether it’s even music, but still retain. So that has taken more of a front stage. And the other things are still there and very much appreciated and so. And still a part of our lives. But, you know, and the foods also, I would say four times out of seven, we’ll have maybe American food.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
Pasta, hamburgers, or, you know, grilled cheese sandwiches if my grandson is over. And then very much, very much enjoy Pakistani food, for example. And I don’t know. I mean, I had a gathering yesterday which I felt was very much, you know, reaffirmation of the commitment to my roots and appreciation for both the culture and, you know, the faith. We had a. And yet it was very much, I think, American in nature in the sense that I had 80 ladies over for a, you know, a conversation on the values in Islam of giving charity Sadaqah. And so, you know, and having that as a way to share knowledge, but in the context of the world that we live in and the people that we serve. And so Sadaqah, you know, can be for the charities that I work for.

Shakila Ahmad:
It can be to uplift people that Compass, Cincinnati Compass, is trying to uplift and support. And it can also be to feed poor people in Gaza or in Pakistan or wherever. And then we had a traditional feast which contained Pakistani food, Afghani food, American salad, and everything in between.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
So, you know, I think we’re just. I continue to live my life in that hybrid fashion, and I love it.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, I love it. I try to live my life the same way, too. I’m always thinking, like, my Thanksgiving is always a hybrid of the best foods from both cultures.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah.

Clara Matonhodze:
So, yeah, we’ve got traditional Thanksgiving right along with your traditional American foods and.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah. Awesome.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, awesome.

Bryan Wright:
What I hear, just thinking about the threads. You talked about values and, like, that is a constant of, you know, of your faith, culture, and heritage. And with that, there’s. Whether it’s bringing 80 women together and around food, but also to talk and to share values. But towards action, I hear a lot of this building trust and building community, which to me, both that equals, like, belonging. And I feel like that kind of weaves into all the work that you do. And with your work. When you and I met, it was.

Bryan Wright:
You were a founding. You’re on the task force on immigration from a previous marriage on Cranley, a founding board member of Cincinnati Compass, and also doing a lot of interfaith work. It wasn’t until a couple years after that I realized that you were also working in the tech field at IBM through a conversation with you. And then, of course, you know, running a medical practice and then your interfaith work. That’s a pretty wide arc. And you always find community. You always work to build trust. And so in each of those spaces, how do you navigate that? And when did you realize that your voice belonged at the civic leadership table?

Clara Matonhodze:
So.

Shakila Ahmad:
I think it’s important for me for it to be authentic and natural. And so what I found as a result of all of the things that we’ve already talked about, is that I don’t find conflict between wanting to be the CEO of IBM and being board chair of the Islamic center of Greater Cincinnati, because I carry the same values to the spaces that I go in. So though I started my professional career at IBM, I. If I thought about it and you guys helped me with your questions to really give it a little bit of thought. I loved it because of both the abilities. I was in the consulting, more on the educational consulting side, but part of the large marketing, corporate marketing arm. So I got to educate and I got to build relationships. Okay.

Shakila Ahmad:
And that work, then that experience allowed me, you know, there was no conflict in moving that into the nonprofit space. And into being an entrepreneur of managing our own medical practice is that I got to build relationships. And the more relationships that I built along common values and along common goals that we wanted to achieve for the community and that I was able to. Education isn’t just about educating others. It’s about your lifelong journey of growth and learning. And so for me, it just opened up this entire other avenue of growth and learning. And I was like a sponge talking to the school scholars, talking to the architects, talking to, you know, people in the community as to what it is, you know, and specifically the Islamic Center’s case could offer to the greater community. But yet I think it’s the same approach that I would take to and have tried to take to the other spaces that I walk into is that, do you have something to contribute? What is it? What value bases are you going to use? And, you know, how are you going to leverage education for yourself and others?

Bryan Wright:
I love how you take the dichotomy or the power dynamic of teacher and student and flip it and where the teacher becomes the student, where you’re always learning. And I feel like, whether in those. Those power dynamics of CEO and staff or board director and staff, it’s not a. That is a servant leader, and you’re always willing to learn. I think that’s great to see.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, I think so, too. And also, another thing that I want to say about Shaquilla is in your story, in your journey, you know, it’s almost. We cannot talk to someone of Muslim faith and not talk about 9, 11, you know, I feel like. And so during that time, well, I guess it could be argued that many in the Muslim community kind of pulled back. You stepped forward. Right. And you said that it was life shattering. It was life shattering for a lot of us, absolutely.

Clara Matonhodze:
But at that time, you also made a choice to. To open the doors to the Islamic center and to welcome others in. And I can assume in a way to demystify a lot of what people associate the Muslim faith with. So what led you to push that? You know, what gave you the strength? I’m curious to know, what was your thought process at that time, at a time that was obviously very, very. What’s the word I’m looking for? A lot of Muslims felt very vulnerable, you know, and it’s like, let’s just keep a low profile. Let’s just keep quiet. But you’re like, no, you know, this is the time when we need to be visible. We’re opening the doors.

Clara Matonhodze:
We are inviting the community in. Talk about that time. And that decision, in light of what Bryan has talked about, your leadership and all of that.

Shakila Ahmad:
So I almost had a nervous breakdown after 9-11, because it was, you know, I’m getting a little emotional just thinking about it, as a lot of people would. Just the loss of innocent life, the trauma caused by it, the impact on families, the impact on a nation as a whole, the impact on people across the. The globe. And so after, I think, two or three days, my husband said, you’re not allowed to watch the news anymore. You need to turn this off, and you need to get yourself together. And, you know, I mean, I realized that it was just a matter of when it was going to happen. And so even though this center had the tours and talks program from its opening in 1995, people had been coming. This was a pivotal point as to how we move forward.

Shakila Ahmad:
And so I think there was a meeting by the police chief and, you know, one of the other people from Westchester, because the center had already received three threatening phone calls and so on and so forth. The children on the campus were not feeling safe to go, and a lot of mosques were empty. And so he asked me to be there, and I had to make a decision as to if I would or not. And then the second key decision, which led to subsequent actions, is, Clara, sometimes we need to decide, as difficult as it may be, are you going to be your voice or are you going to let others represent you? And that was the key thing for me, is that if I did not use my voice, if I did not share about who I was, and when I say, you know, I’m then going from the singular I to the community, if I did not do that, then somebody else was going to define who I was, what I stood for, and what it meant. And so, though it was extremely difficult, there were people within the community, outside the community, that were looking for that. Who are you? What do you represent? What does it mean? What is inside the Islamic Center? And so sometimes you have to be vulnerable to be known. You have to be vulnerable to get to a point of being brave. And you have to be all of those things in order to be seen and heard as you are.

Clara Matonhodze:
So that’s what you’re thinking. Yeah. Yeah, I could. Yeah, I could see that. See, you have to be vulnerable to be seen otherwise. Yeah, you let others define you.

Shakila Ahmad:
Exactly right.

Clara Matonhodze:
Then you lose your voice.

Shakila Ahmad:
You lose your voice, and they’re not going to define you as you are.

Clara Matonhodze:
Right.

Shakila Ahmad:
They’re going to do it with their.

Clara Matonhodze:
Lens, whatever they know and understand. Yes. Yeah, that’s very true.

Bryan Wright:
And I also see being vulnerable, as you said, being vulnerable to be brave. And I see this thread of this kind of servant leadership, this education, even in new initiatives of empowering spaces. And we’ll get into that. And I see, without anticipating the further discussion, just being vulnerable to go into these spaces. And that requires. It’s this dichotomy of vulnerability and bravery to walk in, to say, I might be the only one in this room of people with their preconceived notions from 9, 11 or before up till now, but it’s necessary work. And you talk about that. And so I think if we can, we’ll take a pause now and break, and when we come back, we can kind of dive more into your new initiative of empowering spaces, which I think continues those threads that we’ve already talked about.

Bryan Wright:
So we’ll pause here, and we’ll be right back. You are listening to Roots, Routes and Voices, a Cincinnati Compass podcast. This podcast was funded in part by a grant from Carol Ann and Ralph v. Hale Jr. Foundation. Thank you for your support in helping us to share stories that make up our beautiful region, but often go unheard.

Clara Matonhodze:
All right, welcome back to Roots, Routes and Voices. Shakila. So we’ve been talking about your journey, and we want to continue a little bit about your journey before we go ultimately to the voice that you now have in the community, which I guess your journey is part of. Right? But let’s talk about how you made history as the first woman to chair the board of a mosque in the United States. That’s amazing. You’re also the youngest member when you joined the Islamic Center’s board. That kind of trailblazing doesn’t come easy, does it?

Shakila Ahmad:
No. And I never thought of myself as a trailblazer. I’m usually pretty conservative in that sense, but there’s a few facts.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah. Yeah, you absolutely were a trailblazer. So what was the weight of that roll? Or what is the weight of that role? And what doors do you think that opened for you and possibly for other women?

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah, I mean, I think you use the word weight sometimes it’s a little overwhelming. But I think the word that I think of most when I think of those firsts and the roles that I was able to serve is gratitude. Because gratitude means that those were opportunities that, you know, God’s will that would put in front of me. And either way I could embrace it. And then embracing it means fully embracing it and running with it in terms of making a difference. Or I could just say, oh, I got a check mark, and, you know, a good deal, and not really do anything with it. So my whole outlook is gratitude for having the opportunity to do so. Some of them were a little surprising, but then a reflection on how it is that I was going to approach that role.

Shakila Ahmad:
And third of all, what impact I wanted to be able to see and what impact I wanted, what impact and opportunities I wanted it to open for, particularly other women, but other people in general, because I feel mentorship is not just mentoring people who are just like you that are coming behind you, but it’s mentoring all of those who can uplift those same values and all of those things that we’ve been talking about. So. And I may be fraying a little bit from your question, but, I mean, I think it’s a lot of work, and it is required for me, for being who I am, for full immersion in the role. I mean, to the point where my husband would say, you know what, they have that little gatehouse at the entrance of the Islamic center. Maybe you should just move there. I mean, literally, he told me that I don’t know how many times. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, calm down. It’s okay.

Clara Matonhodze:
You know, but it answers your question. It answers the. It answers the question. You’re like, maybe a string, and you’re not. Because then it’s. When you’re doing something that you love, when you’re creating a body of work that’s not based on that check mark, but it’s. It’s really like a body of work in your life, then you don’t feel the weight. It’s more like you’re falling into gratitude for being able to do something that you love, you know, so.

Shakila Ahmad:
And you. If you feel like it. Feel the weight, you do what you need to, to not let it overpower you and to stop you from doing what you’re doing, because it was tough. It was really, really tough. And there were a lot of perceptions and voices that I needed to come over to overcome in both of those roles and other roles as well. So I don’t want to make it seem like it was.

Clara Matonhodze:
Like it wasn’t easy. Like it wasn’t hard. Yeah, yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
But at the same time, you can’t walk around saying, oh, it’s so hard. It’s so hard. It’s just, you know, that’s not who I am. And for me, it’s not productive.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
But, yes, you’re right.

Clara Matonhodze:
I hear you. I feel like. So I. When I started, when I worked in my business. Like, I can easily pull 24 hours. Right. Like, I could have. I always feel like I am.

Clara Matonhodze:
I can have a lot of things going on that are coming my way, but I never feel stressed. It’s a different type of stress than, say, when I used to work. And I know. And I knew, like, I gotta work, you know. Yeah. It’s different. So I feel. I totally understand what you’re talking about.

Clara Matonhodze:
You know, it’s a lot. It’s not like that, it’s not easy. It’s hard, but it’s a different type of stress. Yeah. Okay.

Bryan Wright:
So I’m thinking, like when you said you can’t let the stress stop you or burn, what kind of this gets in the emotional labor of the work? How are you? In thinking of others, getting into this work? Right. So if we think about the labor of women.

Shakila Ahmad:
Such a good term.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah.

Bryan Wright:
When you say, like, opening up doors for other women, I’m thinking about pals. Right. And I’ve seen you’ve introduced me to this group and you’ve. You light up. And when introducing to a lot of different groups.

Shakila Ahmad:
Pakistani American ladies for social welfare.

Clara Matonhodze:
Pakistan American ladies for social welfare.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yes. Focus on peace, education and, you know, serving women here and in Pakistan, serving, you know, students, but particularly women from health and from an education point of view. And a friend of mine started it, Dr. Sabachti. But then now there’s a young pals group, which are teens, young women, who asked me to kind of serve as an advisor, you know, mentor to the group. And so that’s what Bryan is talking about. And I told them about Compass, and they were excited. And, you know, they came to the last event and they loved it.

Bryan Wright:
They loved it. They came in T-shirts. They got to meet the mayor and meet other community members. So they had a really good experience, and I’m glad that they were able to attend. And so thinking about, you know, rising leaders and thinking about. So when they see you and others in the community, it says it gives them that hope because, you know, representation means a lot, and it means, like, I can be there too.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah.

Bryan Wright:
And but with that comes this emotional labor. Right. And so when you’re thinking about young leaders and, you know, you talked about being the only one in the room, the stress not only of just the broader context in which we live and operate, but can you speak to some? Like, how are you? How do you find joy? How do you find moments to breathe so you can continue doing the work? And I’m asking in a more technical way, so that young leaders like the palace can hear that, because I think that’s a crucial part of this, too.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah, no, that’s an excellent question, because I’m also constantly asking myself that, because the weight of the world can pull you down. The weight of the environment and people’s attitudes towards you can really be. What’s the word? You know, where you’re not able to move because of that?

Clara Matonhodze:
Negative.

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah, negative. But, you know, just paralyzing sometimes. And so having that emotional energy and that desire and the will to continue, you know, Bryan, I want to go back to three words which just came to my brain that I’ve used over the years as to what grounds me and what is really a way from my path forward. And that’s faith, family, and community. So when I begin to feel the burden, I look to my faith. I go to my family or I look at my family, because sometimes I don’t want to burden them, but I look to my family, and I’m full of gratitude. I’m full of gratitude when I look at my faith, and then I look at my community. And so I can always find positive things and needs that say Shakila.

Shakila Ahmad:
You can’t be paralyzed. Shakila. Get over whatever it is for at least a while and lean on all of those three things as you need. And I lean on all of them. This gathering that I had of 80 women, in a way, it was me leaning on that. It was leaning on this friend who’s so knowledgeable and who was the speaker. And at the same time, when you talk about young people, I made a conscious effort that I had several young women that were my daughter’s age that were there. That’s great, because, you know, this is.

Shakila Ahmad:
It was a social gathering, but it was a gathering of learning. And at the same time, it’s a gathering of growth for these young people because I wanted them to understand that charity also includes civic work, civic leadership. And so they’re always, you know, a lot of them ask, can you do a talk on this? Or do you know, what about this? How do I handle this if they’re coming onto a new board? So you kind of try to live it out for them. And that also gives you, I think, inspiration and motivation.

Bryan Wright:
That’s great. And thinking some more about civic work. So over the years, you’ve served on boards with interfaith leaders, social justice groups, museums, universities, and even the FBI Advisory Council.

Clara Matonhodze:
Oh, I want to know more about the FBI Advisory Council. That sounds true.

Bryan Wright:
What have you learned from working across these divides? And how do you navigate building trust in rooms where people carry very different beliefs?

Shakila Ahmad:
Well, it’s not easy. Okay. It’s not easy at all. And I don’t want people to think, oh, just, you know, she jumps into everything and anything people ask her. I’m very thoughtful about what I agree to do. And then I go in. And again, people may not see this, but I go in with a very humble attitude of where I need to learn. I need to learn.

Shakila Ahmad:
I need to understand the people, the environment, before I try to offer anything that, you know.

Clara Matonhodze:
And you have always struck me as that whenever I’ve met you in the community, actually. Yeah, like, yes.

Shakila Ahmad:
Stay quiet a little bit sometimes so I can learn.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah. Like you, I can see it. Yeah, that’s good. It makes perfect sense.

Shakila Ahmad:
I mean, because we’re not the expert in 99% of things, so you have to learn from other people’s experiences. You have to learn about the infrastructure, and you have to learn. Also, you may have agreed to something because you feel you have strengths that you can offer. I mean, I only agree to things where I think I can make a positive difference and continue to learn.

Clara Matonhodze:
So. So.

Shakila Ahmad:
But even then, you have to get into the environment to understand. So that’s my approach. Exactly. And how is it? But, Bryan, I will tell you, sometimes it’s lonely and it’s draining.

Bryan Wright:
Right.

Shakila Ahmad:
So I try not to show it, but it does get that way.

Clara Matonhodze:
Speak more about the draining part. Well, is that the emotional labor that we’re talking about?

Shakila Ahmad:
I think it’s. Yes, it’s the emotional labor that goes into it. It goes into the fact that in some environments, you know, from a majority to 90% of the people may not understand who you are, your values, your skill sets. You know, I sometimes sit in a room with CEOs, and, you know, they just feel like, okay, they can make the decisions and, you know, they don’t need to understand me at that level. I’m not talking about all CEOs, but I’m just talking about people that have known leadership recognition throughout the region or the country. And I’ve sat with all of the above. And so it is emotionally draining. And sometimes staying silent is hard.

Shakila Ahmad:
And then speaking up and having your voice be known and your viewpoint sometimes is not popular. Go along with the theme everybody wants to hear. Yeah, people want to hear that, oh, we’re doing great. And this, you know, is just right. And so it takes courage that I have to muster up. And that in itself can also be draining. But again, you have to go back to who you are and why you’re there.

Clara Matonhodze:
Okay, exactly.

Shakila Ahmad:
What’s your voice?

Clara Matonhodze:
What’s your voice? Yeah. So is this why the title of this podcast is going to be something along the lines of From Pakistan to a National Voice? Because you do have a national voice at this point and you’re rolling your eyes.

Shakila Ahmad:
I mean, I, you can say that.

Clara Matonhodze:
I can’t say that, which is amazing. But I want, I want. Is this. Speak more to that, what we just talked about in terms of the emotional labor, in terms of being in spaces sometimes that you feel is draining. And can you tie that to your current project, Empowering Spaces? Can you talk more about that and how maybe you’re pulling all of that together? Like, what are you wanting to do? What are you wanting the community to understand?

Shakila Ahmad:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, some people say, why don’t you just take long vacations? You know, And I’m like, I do that too because I love, you know, travel and people. But Empowering Spaces is very, very close to my heart and to my head because it is the culmination of my 30 plus plus years of experience in all of these spaces. And I feel that I have a lot more to give and I have a lot more effective changes that I am able to help organizations, institutions make in order to be more successful in areas where maybe they haven’t thought about. And so it truly is about empowering all of those spaces, but allowing myself to empower myself to be in those spaces with my partner, of course, Dr. Samina Sohail.

Clara Matonhodze:
So you’re pretty much like, I’m tired of going here, there, there, there, there, there, there. I’m creating this space.

Shakila Ahmad:
You come to me well, you know, not so much, but so much, but I think.

Clara Matonhodze:
But you’re creating a platform for it.

Shakila Ahmad:
Exactly. I’m allowing it to be all now focused in this one entity because I’m able to give it time.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yes.

Shakila Ahmad:
And energy with my kids all grown up with me having, you know, you know, done what I needed to do from a business perspective to spin off the practice and, you know, and garnering all of that experience and knowledge and those relationships across the country as well. And so I’ve, in consulting with people before I embarked upon it as an llc, I only received positive feedback in the sense. And actually, you know, this is something people have been asking me to do for 15 years. Okay. And I just said no, I’m, you know, I’m providing the education and the service that I need through these Means and I don’t have, you know, time to embark upon this as my primary project. Well, now I do. And the need is still there.

Clara Matonhodze:
And again, even more so.

Shakila Ahmad:
Even more so, Clara. And it comes back to who is going to be my voice. You know, I just thought of that. Who is going to be my voice if I don’t speak up and do it for myself? And so this is allowing my voice to be heard, but in a way where I understand the corporate world, the, you know, the healthcare world, the law enforcement world and the higher academic world in order to empower them to be successful. That’s the reason.

Clara Matonhodze:
Makes perfect sense.

Shakila Ahmad:
Does make sense.

Clara Matonhodze:
Absolutely. It makes perfect sense. Create the space and. Yeah.

Shakila Ahmad:
Provide the strategies, the tools, the storytelling, the data to allow people to then decide for themselves. Nobody’s forcing anybody to do anything. And it’s completely driven by what they, you know, may or may not see as their needs.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yeah, yeah.

Bryan Wright:
It seems like everyone benefits from this. And you talked about the head and the heart. For you, this is a project of your heart and of your mind. And it seems the work also helps these organizations, these sectors, to. And individuals, the people there, to open their hearts to better understanding and to be more welcoming. But it also reaches the mind to how do you do this in practice? There are strategies through processes and procedures, the technical sides, to enhance an organizational capacity to be welcoming, which not only helps the bottom line, it helps with retention, it helps all these things. And so just. It just seems like a holistic approach, if you will, to, you know, empowering spaces and people.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yep.

Shakila Ahmad:
And, you know, the third element of the heart, the head, is I’m putting my hands together. Work.

Bryan Wright:
Yes.

Shakila Ahmad:
I’m putting my feet to work. And so whether others do or not, it’s completely their choice. But that’s the opportunity that we have in front of us in a world that we live in where people are. People are looking for ways to come together. I think generally, at the core, I believe people are good, people are good. They want the same things that you were talking about, Clara, that you, you know, in your faith and your culture and the world that you’ve grown up in, people want those things. And I understand that and I respect that. We don’t have to agree on everything, but we need to be able to provide each other with those strategies and tools to be able to achieve those goals that we want, whether it’s institutionally or individually.

Clara Matonhodze:
Naturally. Yeah. And I also feel like, especially now in this world of AI, we really need more and more organizations that are part of. And I’m not sure whether empowering spaces is doing this, but absolutely. In just being able to focus on what do you say people of Muslim faith need? What do African people need? You know, like, how do we. How do we plug into the LLMs and all of the training that’s going on in order for these minority voices to be heard. Otherwise, we have the same stereotypical stuff that has been happening, you know, happen again, because they’re just not being trained in these voices that we share, you know, so.

Shakila Ahmad:
Absolutely. I think the knowledge piece you’re talking about is critical, but part of that, I would add to that sentence, how do we leverage them? How do we tap on to their skills and talents in order to achieve and the potential for collective goals? Yes, that’s, you know, I think that’s the critical piece for me.

Clara Matonhodze:
Yes, absolutely.

Shakila Ahmad:
Is getting that across and those spaces.

Clara Matonhodze:
So we are winding down. What should I do? What haven’t we talked about?

Bryan Wright:
I think in thinking of all we’ve discussed today, what gives you hope?

Shakila Ahmad:
Well, you guys do, you know, it’s been a privilege to work with you, Bryan, and I’m inspired by your level of energy and commitment. But I think what gives me hope are the people. Yeah, the people that I’ve had the opportunity to work with, the people that have reached back out to me without me reaching out to them too. What gives me hope are those amazing mentors and leaders like, you know, Janet Reed and Dan Hurley and other friends of mine like Carolyn Peonymichelli who’s at Scripps and Amy, who’s at the art museum has motivated me to expand my horizon and get involved in the art museum. And so I think it’s those beautiful, diverse people that allow continued growth and that allow continued hope for those common values and the world we want to see. And the world, not only do we want to see, but we’re willing to work towards.

Clara Matonhodze:
Right. And on that amazing note, Shaquille, thank you so much for joining us today.

Shakila Ahmad:
Thank you very much. It’s been my pleasure.

Bryan Wright:
Thank you so much, Shakila to everyone at home. We appreciate you for joining us today. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to Roots, Routes and Voices that Shape America wherever you stream your podcast. Visit www.cincinnaticompass.org to sign up for our newsletter and stay connected about upcoming community events.

Clara Matonhodze:
Our producers are Asiami Shu and Jane Moendi. Sound engineering and mixing provided by Hardcast Media, OSAT engineers Peter and Audrey and 1127 Media. A very special thank you to the Forest park branch of Cincinnati, Hamilton County Public Library for hosting and to Carol Ann and Ralph v. Hale Jr. Foundation for sponsoring our podcast. I’m your host, Clara Matonhodze. Thanks for listening.